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  • Writer's pictureFrancisco Mahfuz

E61. How to Reboot Your Story with Hana Jung

Below is an AI-generated transcript and therefore it may contain errors.

Francisco Mahfuz 0:00

Hi everyone, Francisco here. Just before we get started, I wanted to share something I'm really excited about. I recently launched the story powers bootcamp, a course that teaches you everything you need to know about how to find craft and tell stories that work. But it's not just an online course, because you get personalised feedback from me for all the practical activities in three hours of life coaching to work through any challenges, or focus on specific projects. So it's like if you bought a cookbook, but the chef came along with it. So go to story and click on Course, all the information you need will be there. So please check it out. And if you love the show, and would like to support us, you can go to buy me a forward slash story powers. I drink about five coffees a day, so any support would be much appreciated. All right on with the show.

Welcome to the story powers podcast, the show about the power of stories, the people who tell them and why you should be doing it too. I'm your host keynote speaker and storytelling coach Francisco mahfuz. My guest today is Hana Jung. Hana is a serial entrepreneur and startup advisor with expertise spanning digital marketing, app development, luxury hospitality technology in design. She has 10 years of brand strategy experience with major brands like Samsung clarens, and Rolex. Now, Hannah is the founder and chief connector of reboot experiences, which helps conscious leaders to rapidly gain clarity and confidence to charging to their next big chapter. Henna spends a lot of her time barefoot in paradise locations like Bali, which I would normally be very jealous off to because of the pandemic. I've been barefoot for most of the last year. So who needs Bali? Ladies and gentlemen, Hello, Jack. Hanna, welcome to the show.

Hana Jung 1:57

Thank you, Francis. definitely agree with you on the barefoot all the time. No, I now whatever you want.

Francisco Mahfuz 2:06

I absolutely understand the concept barefoot luxury. I went to the Maldives a few years ago, the first and last time I went to the Maldives, I'm still paying for it, I think. And the it wasn't particularly luxurious as as holiday resorts go. But you could definitely spend the whole time you were there barefoot, but because the whole thing was set up for that. And I've tried implementing that in my day to day life here in Barcelona, and I've I once left I went swimming in the ocean in during the winter. And then I said what if I just don't put my shoes back on? How far can I get barefoot? I actually managed to bog for a good 40 odd minutes. And I think I only put my shoes back on when I was getting into the into the underground to the metro. But it was it was a bit dicey to keep looking for broken glass.

Hana Jung 2:59

I'm sure you've got some interesting works along the way.

Francisco Mahfuz 3:03

Yes, but it's also true that until not that long ago, it was legal to be naked in Barcelona. So so a few people actually took advantage of that. And if you if you Google after we're done, naked man of Barcelona, you're going to find that guy. It's an old guy. He's bad now, but it's like an older guy who made a point of walking up and down the Ramblas naked. And he tattooed like It looks like a black Speedo that he tattooed. So if you see him from the back, it's like is this and oh, and when you look at the the pictures, because his naked, they blurred? They blurred his his genitalia. But it's a very long blur. So you're looking at him? Like why is that blurred all the way to his knee? I mean, this is. He was he was

Hana Jung 3:57

though, you know, he had the rules. And he was just playing to those rules and that creativity out of respect that game?

Francisco Mahfuz 4:04

Yeah, it's a shame. I never I don't miss the fact that they changed that law. And now it's not legal to walk around naked in Barcelona again. But it was funny that when they were talking about changing the law, the protest against it was I think 50 or 60. People got the PERB the BC which are the public bicycles in Barcelona, naked. I don't think that's just not fair to everyone that's going to come discuss.

Hana Jung 4:30

Absolutely. Oh, my God. That'd be really funny to see that.

Francisco Mahfuz 4:35

Yeah, I'm not sure fine is that I saw, I saw a little bit of it was just extra. My office was fine. He was not really that worried in my head.

Hana Jung 4:45

I think, you know, I'm from New York. So I see a lot of like, strange behaviour that I don't even like, I don't even notice anymore after all these years. I mean, I'm not in New York now. But whenever I see there's like The homeless would use like the bicycle racks and do like spinning classes like on the racks, they would just like bicycle backwards and do like a spin class like exercise aerobics. I was like, that's really creative. So,

Francisco Mahfuz 5:12

yeah, every city, Barcelona has our inception, I'm not sure if it's Spain, or if it's just personally but they have, they have some strange rules when it comes to things like homeless people. So it's very, it's essentially almost impossible to move someone from a place where they're living in, regardless if the place they're living in was theirs to begin with, or not. So if you go away for a long holiday, like you you're travelling around the world, you live in different places, if one of those places was in Barcelona, and someone got into your home and leave there for a month or two, it will be very difficult to get them out that that's just how the law is here. And there was there was a friend of mine in front of his house, there was a there was a garage was like a double door garage in a building in a guy who used to be homeless set up shop there. And when we when my friend moved there, it was just you know, had some cardboard boxes and he was sleeping rough. And we thought a table. Probably he's not going to be there for very long. But then he started sort of building up his his house. And at some point, he had books, he had some Bruce Lee pictures on the walls he had he got a stereo somewhere. And he put plants up. So he got some privacy's. All you can see was just like this really nice sort of shelter with plants and out everywhere. And it's like, but isn't this a garage? Like how do they get in here? So So yeah, but don't don't make one of your your seasonal homes persona is what I'm saying. So anyway, I've got a quote that I think you're gonna like. So this is from Jerry Seinfeld. Right? And he was talking about business. I think it was with Alec Baldwin. And then in then Alec was asking him, you know, because Because Cypher if you wanted, he could have a massive business empire on the basis of his sitcom alone. Not even counting everything else. And the reason he said that he wasn't interested is he said, Do you want to be on a surfboard? Or do you want to be on a yacht? Because I want to be on a surfboard. I want to be right on the water. That's what I like the yacht thing. I mean, some people like to have a yacht so they can tell other people look at my yacht, but I don't want to be on the surfboard. So I think that means a lot more to you that he means to other people. Yeah, absolutely.

Hana Jung 7:35

Or better yet have the yacht that takes you so I always say don't choose. Both.

Francisco Mahfuz 7:45

Yes, true. True. But I remember that I came across that. And I don't remember if I came across that before I came across you. But I thought given that you you love surfing. And you you worked in a yacht and you developed a yachting or was it a yachting staffing app? Was that it? Yeah,

Hana Jung 8:02

exactly. I know. It's definitely like a weird life trajectory, to have done that, like part of my life. And then now I'm like working fully remote for the last seven years. And you know, building several businesses on the road. So yeah, it's quite quite a leap. But then even before like yachting, I was like in New York. So you know, I like to mix things up, I sometimes just do it for the stories, but also, just because it sounds fun.

Francisco Mahfuz 8:31

A lot of the things that you are doing now, I think, feel significantly less weird than they did a year ago, because remote work was a very strange thing that not many people did, you know, a couple of years ago. And now I think I'll be very surprised, surprised if the option of doing a part of your of any work remote is not something that a lot of companies are having to put up with, even if they don't want to, because people realise that actually, eight to 10 hours in the office having to commute every single day, not my ideal life.

Hana Jung 9:07

Yeah. And I think people are gonna start using it as like an incentive. Like, you know, back in the day, like startups were like, oh, unlimited vacation, they're also going to be like, optional. remote work. So yeah, I think it's definitely people are gonna ask for more freedom, I think moving forward.

Francisco Mahfuz 9:25

So one thing you might remember this from the very first time we talked, but you and I met because you appeared on Brian Miller's podcast, reminding the host, the only person I've had twice on my podcast. And in he he reached out and he said, You know, I think you really need to speak to her and then I looked at what you're up to, and I said, a show you didn't send her to the wrong podcast, because almost everybody I talked to is either a speaker or a storyteller, or someone who works in more directly with that type of stuff in marketing, but I believe that the reason why he thought that that you and I should talk was because, again, it might just be a case of semantics. But pretty much the work you do now is you are helping people rewrite their story, essentially.

Hana Jung 10:17

Exactly. That's a beautiful way to put it, Francisco. And yeah, I couldn't agree more. There's these stories that we tell ourselves that keep us stuck and keep us small, like a lot of these like limiting beliefs and subconscious blocks stem from these stories that we keep telling ourselves, it's usually in the form of like a repeating thought, like, Oh, I'm not good enough. Or, Oh, I have this great idea of but then everyone else is doing it, or like, this would be cool. But oh, I don't know what I'm doing. You know, like, there's these like constant like, negative feedback loops that's happening in your brain. So what I do is like, yeah, you're absolutely right, I help them identify where the tape is stuck. And then have them choose a different story, and rewrite their past story, or reframe their past story in order to move forward with a little bit more clarity.

Francisco Mahfuz 11:09

So before we jump into into the work you're doing at reboot experiences, I heard you talk about some things that had more to do with you and how you've done that for you. And if I understand correctly, one of the most important things you remember those different processes you had to go through was learning how to let go of the stories you were carrying from your family, right?

Hana Jung 11:32

Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, as Asian American, a child of immigrants and you know, very timely with what's happening the world right now, I realised that there's two different stories that I had to let go of one being the stories that I inherited from my parents about success, about how to conduct myself in the world about money about all of the different aspects, that immigrant parents who had given up everything to allow myself and my brothers to succeed, like, they had very high expectations. So on the one hand, there's that personal story that I had to carry and learn to release. And then on the other hand, there's another story, which is this model minority, you got to do what's expected of you from being I was born in the US, but, you know, even now, like systemic racism exists, and people look at me, they're like, oh, like, your English is so good. Like, where did Where are you from? I'm like, I'm from Texas, like, you know, and like dealing with that and how to work in a very like I you know, in my previous life, I worked in tech and marketing and yachting is also very male dominated, as well. So I found myself continuously in situations, very male dominated also very white, you know, growing up in Texas, as you can imagine, is very white. So I've also had to learn to let go of the stories of people's expectations of me, I didn't choose the normal career trajectory. And also to dive deeper into spirituality and a little bit more like, choosing my own path is very different, even among the Asian American community. So when people meet me, they're like, how the hell did you do it? It's just, it's to be intentional about how I removed those two stories.

Francisco Mahfuz 13:27

One question that comes to my mind when, when you talk about that type of stuff is, at what point did to I don't know if you if you even use this type of language when you think about this stuff, right? So the whole language, the stories with ourselves, but whatever you call it? Was there a point where something happened? Where you thought, Okay, well, this stuff I've been carrying, I have to drop it. Do it. Was there any point or any sort of turning point or any thing that happened that made you realise that this was happening in this was dragging you down?

Hana Jung 14:04

Yeah, I think it happened at different that aha moment happened at different times for the two different stories. So with the family stories that I was carrying it, it happened kind of gradually over time, but then the big, big moment for me was losing my uncle to cancer when I was quite young. And I realised and losing several like my I used to ice skate as well. And my skating partner, like committed suicide at a very young age as well. So I experienced a lot of loss at such a young age that the takeaway that I got from that was like, You know what, like, life actually is short doesn't matter if you're old. It doesn't matter if you're young, it doesn't matter what race you are, it doesn't matter anything. Like you really do have to live fully and like, take, like participate actively in your life. Because up to that point, I was just kind of like going with whatever my parents suggested. because I was so sheltered I was so like, in my bubble that I didn't know any better. And that was sort of the wake up moment for me. So, on a personal level, it happened much sooner. And then gradually over time, like I learned to identify what I wanted to do over a decade. And then with the second story of like, what's my role in society as an Asian American child of immigrants and carrying that weight in a, in a know, primarily, like, you know, cisgender, male, white industry and environment. That actually happened much later in life, it didn't happen until I started working on a yacht. And, you know, this is after my corporate career, and I was like, oh, I want to, like start a company. And when I was looking to raise funds, so much of the funding goes to people that look like the VC leaders. And I realised like, you know, what, like, a lot of people think that there's only one way to start a company, and it's through funding and whatever. And I realise that like, again, like, we have to come to our own aid sometimes. And I made the decision to save up my own money and raise my own capital. And I was able to start with only like 10 grand, and was able to scale it successfully. And that kind of really taught me that, you know, the story that you need to do things a certain way, or, Oh, because of my race, or like, my gender, like, things are not possible for me like that story, I started to let go up, because I thought, Oh, um, I need funding and whatever. But it's really simply just not true.

Francisco Mahfuz 16:45

It's a sad state of affairs, how a lot of the stories like the one you just mentioned particular about being Asian American, how common they are. I mean, I've just, I've just coached someone for the DAX and she is a straight Asian Australian. And it sounds like the exact same story. So you know, she went school and everybody else was all over you from here. And then they were they had the, the advanced English class, which was for the Australians. And they had sort of the, you know, whatever. They called it the normal English class. And she got put into normal English class, it was just like, but it's my first language. This is what I speak everyday. And then she became she was she didn't go in startups, but she became a lawyer. And she said that what we usually happen is if, you know, she goes into a boardroom, and everybody looks at her a bit funny, like, so is this the junior lawyer? Do you have like a white guy coming at some point? And apparently, once they actually said, like, someone actually said to her, it's like, she gave the legal opinion. And they said, and they were looking at her funny. And do you guys have? Did you have any questions about the about the presentation isn't? No, it's just not usually see lawyers like you.

Hana Jung 18:05

Yeah, I know, deeply what that feels like. But with that said, I've somehow find found a way to use that to my advantage. And what I mean by that is because people expect, not less of you, but they don't expect it, I guess. I've used that as almost a tool to move forward and then like, launch or like, achieve success much quicker because I, I receive less friction, because they're like, all like, she's not like, I can't take her seriously or like whatever the hell it is, like, I don't really care. I'll just go forward. So yeah, there's duality to like, every challenge, I think, like, yes, of course, like it, it creates a bit of challenge. But then when you set the ego aside, and the personal, like, attack, in a front aside, there's always an opportunity. And for me, that opportunity was like, I can do whatever I want. And people won't really notice or people won't really say otherwise. And I will, I know that I'll end up surprising them. So that to me is actually more fun. And I choose to to like view that challenge through the lens of like, this is a game and this is fun, rather than like, oh, like they're not expecting this of me. It's not like oh, I require them to look at me a certain way. Like, I think I've kind of passed that. So yeah, like that's how I am approaching it.

Francisco Mahfuz 19:35

One thing that a lot of people don't necessarily realise, but that you've lived through it in I've lived through it to a smaller extent, is that the stories we tell ourselves have an immense power to affect how we physically feel, not just how we emotionally feel, because there's this book that I read many years ago and I don't think I'll ever forget the book. It's called Why zebras don't have ulcers. And the the theory of the book is very basic. And it's it this was actually revolutionary when it came out, which is simply that stress is not a mental thing in your body. Our bodies have evolved to deal with stress as a short term occurrence. And anything that causes stress to become a medium or long term phenomenon, your body is messing up the balance of everything. It's putting all sorts of hormones into the system that are not meant to be there for that long. And and that can have real life consequences. So it is it in your case, you got yourself some osis, didn't you?

Hana Jung 20:38

Yes, absolutely. And there's another book called, like the body always keep score, which is also about how we internalise stress. And yeah, I experienced exactly what you said firsthand about allowing the stories and the micro traumas and all the stress builds up in my body, even the mentally I was like, I think I'm fine. But on a subconscious level, my body was like, You are not fine. I think it was a way of coping with the story and telling myself like it's fine when it really wasn't, was just a way to adapt and cope with a very stressful situation in my life. And that for me was the moment that I was like, okay, like that was a wake up call number two was like, okay, like, I really do need to drive this ship, I kind of fell asleep at the wheel. And I need to wake up and like choose something different. And that's why I ended up on a left corporate in New York and ended up on a yacht. Because it was, yeah, that new story that I want to start creating for myself.

Francisco Mahfuz 21:40

So what I suffered with that was, it was nowhere near as serious because you ended up being hospitalised more than once, right? So mine didn't get to that point. But when I was much younger, so they in Brazil, which is where I'm from, you have something like it's not quite like the saps because in Brazil, when I was there, you had to choose the career you want to do. And then you apply for the specific university you want to go to. And then there's a big test, and you need to reach a certain score. And as you can imagine, that is sort of nerve racking, because you can only do that for the for the public universities, which are the ones that everybody wants to go to once a year. So if you don't pass, then it's a big problem. And I throughout the process of studying for it, I started having abdominal pains, and I couldn't quite figure out what it was. And then I think I spent three or four months taking every single exam known to men, and they couldn't find absolutely anything. And then lo and behold, I passed the thing I got into university and it slowly faded away. And then I realised Okay, fine. So this is psychosomatic, this is what I tell them that my ghost pains. And then every so often since if there's some, there's a lot of stress going on in my life, the same spot starts hurting, and then my wife will look at me and go, the ghost pains. So I get in the weird thing, or reverse is good or bad. But I don't always realise that I'm that stressed until they turn up. It's been quite a while since it happened. But I don't always realise that, oh, I'm going through a lot of stress, and maybe I should back off a bit. But then But then I go, Oh, actually, I'm not feeling very this is not comfortable. So what is going on? Maybe maybe more worried about this thing that I thought I was? So so yeah. Now I'm gonna I'm gonna get into the stuff you're doing because? Because this I think is very difficult, right? Because the work you're doing if we're sticking with a story metaphor, is you helping people identify the stories that are limiting, and change them? How do you do, I guess as people are coming to you, so it's not like you have to go out and sell this concept to them. But how much resistance do you get when you're trying to help them figure that out?

Hana Jung 24:01

I'm not much resistance. Because the way that I approach it is through asking a lot of questions and specific questions. It requires me to deeply and compassionately listen to their answers and ask the right questions. But generally, it's a process of peeling back the layer of like, but why but why but why and sometimes, I'm not sure if you're familiar with design thinking and using the five times why to really get to the root of a problem. Yes,

Francisco Mahfuz 24:31

I call it my daughter's my daughter's

Hana Jung 24:35

the daughter method. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So it really kind of drills down into what's the story that you're telling yourself and I I always try to say like why why do you think that is? And then I asked the deeper is the same question, kind of going a deeper, deeper level. And usually the first three answers are kind of the more surface level bullshit answers and then the fourth, and the fifth are the more true answers. And then my methodologies, these stories served a purpose. So it's not about like shoving in a way that's quite violent. You know, it's, it's not about saying, like, those stories are wrong, and they're horrible. You have to cut it out of your life. It's not like that. It's like, okay, like, it's kinda like Marie Kondo, you have to like, look at it, say thank you for your service, and then release it. So it's the same way like you look at where did this belief in the story come from? What role did it play, usually, it's boils down to self preservation, or love or connection. And it makes sense. And it protected them for a long time. But it reaches a certain point. And they know it. The reason why they come to me is when they're like, Oh, it doesn't feel right. Like, this is affecting my job, my life, my relationships, my happiness, all of these things. And they're able to identify like, oh, like, it did serve a purpose. And I do have to say thank you to it. And I was like, yes, but then let's now identify why it's not working for you. So to get them to that self acceptance, and it did serve a purpose and get them to say, Yes, I am ready to let it go. Because I can't force them to let go of a story. So it's really about having them come to that realisation.

Francisco Mahfuz 26:16

Yeah, because the reason I'm saying that this could be complicated, or it could be difficult to ask you about resistance is because just yesterday or the day before, I might have misspoke on social media. And it was sort of baffling to me that anyone thought that was the case. But it was a super simple situation where someone was being someone was being trolled on social media, because the the person who was my friend, she swears, you know, she swears on her posts. And then someone went and wrote this horrendous thing that was very long, whatever, just saying, Oh, you're a horrible person. And my comments to her was something like, because because the woman had made some like grammatical errors, and was comment commenting on her English and like, surely you can't have that good English, if you're swearing that everything in she had some ideas that from like the 1950s about, like, being a lady is what she she clearly aspire to be. And I said, you know, what, why would you possibly care about someone who says, manners? Manners is good? And has this opinion, the opinions that sounds like, you know, some sort of Downton Abbey hole that she crawled out from? And if I were just kind of mostly trying to be amusing, seems like she's a moron, like, why would you bother? Why would you care? And then someone kicked back and not heard someone else said, essentially, that I was telling her how to feel, or that I was trying to sort of invalidating her experience. And my answer was, No, I don't think I'm, well, that's what I was trying to do. Because I think sometimes people have, you know, the story, they're telling themselves about why this matters, is not very helpful in what I was trying to do. Perhaps not, as tactfully as I could have, is to say, Well, you seem bothered by this. But this person clearly is a moron, so that there's no reason to be bothered by this. But then that got me thinking, because I know that with children who don't do that, like my daughter falls down and hurts herself. The worst thing you can say is, are they together up? It's nothing like that, that I definitely know I cannot do. But you're talking to grownups are supposed grownups. And it's clear that what's causing them pain? Is the story. They're telling themselves the way they're framing the situation? Is there any way to, to sort of help them realise that that might be the case, if they haven't gotten that realisation by themselves?

Hana Jung 28:48

That's a great question, Francisco. And when it comes to people's stories and beliefs, they have to be willing to do the like make the change themselves just like how you can't force anyone, like I can't force you to do something you don't deeply believe in. Same goes for them, it's like there has to be their choice. So there's nothing that any external pressure can push them that will have long term changes. They might you might get them to agree in the short term, but the long term will always default to their layer of their belief system and their values. And I this might be an unpopular opinion, but I actually don't believe that there's right truth or wrong truth. I think truth is actually just semantics and a matter of perspective, because how you grew up, gave you a certain set of beliefs and values and how she probably grew up gave her a different set of values and beliefs. And we might be looking at the same mountain but you're coming up from one side that's your like, the mountains all Rocky and she's like, No, I came up from this outside and everything smooth, and you're fighting over things based on perspective, but it's the same mountain. So that's why I don't really like to engage and whose perspective is right or whose perspective is wrong, because I just know that they are just simply speaking from their truth or their perspective at that time. That's not to say that it's not going to shift or change. Like, as they grow as experiences happen to them, they learn, they're able to progress, maybe they move over to the side a little bit and can start to see your perspective more, or maybe you can move to the side and start to see what they're seeing more. So I think it's just a balance of understanding. There is no, like, you're on the same mountain, there's no right or wrong perspective. It's just your perspective at the time. And like, having that compassion for yourself. And for the other person is actually a skill that I feel like in the day of like, trigger culture, where everything everyone is triggered by everything and they fight in their natural inclination is to rise to anger, we need more compassion, and just one second longer to be like, in their moment, their perspective to them feels correct, just as you swear, your perspective is also correct. So that, you know, that's something just to kind of keep in mind. And I understand like, there's some people who will resist change. But that's their prerogative just as how if I made you do something different that you don't want to do, you're like, No, I will never do that.

Francisco Mahfuz 31:25

Yeah, my example is perhaps not even the best one. Because the best example would be when you're, in a sense, trying to help someone in your mind, but they don't want to be helped, or they don't see the same way. This because I think my friend was absolutely fine. The person that had a massive issue with someone else who thought, you know, and then you start getting into gender discussions and is then automatically assumed, or this she seemed to assume that because I'm a man, and I'm talking to a woman that has to do with why I'm telling her how to feel wherever it's like now, I'll say the exact same thing to my friends, my male friends, I would say me, why are you doing? He's a moron. Why are you bothered about this? But I do worry about that. Because although I'm going to say I agree that there is no truth. I think when it comes to feelings, every time it's all subjective, I think there is objective truth. But my concern is when it comes to the fact that someone is suffering, I don't think is usually deniable or subjective I think it's clear someone is suffering. And I, as a parent, I worry about this. And as a husband, I've worried as well, you know, my wife historically, herself over something, and I can't fix the thing that's causing it, but I can help her see it in a different way. And if I do that, the problem goes away. But at what point if the person has enough hasn't come to you and say, I think the way you know, this is this is holding me back. Can you help me reframe it? Are we ever okay? To try and make that happen if they haven't clearly asked for it? And I don't know.

Hana Jung 32:54

Yeah, I mean, the answer to that is no. Like, they're never going to be willing to truly listen, if they didn't give you explicit permission, which is like kind of the benefit of my work. I'm not going out there. I'm not preaching. Like, I just like my purchase, like, I'm just gonna share what I know. And if you want to learn more of like, how I can specifically help you, you are doing the work, you are giving me permission to help you. There's this like, like phrase, that's one of my friends who's a coach was like, Don't coach without permission. And that's so true, because then it becomes more about me, like trying to be a saviour or whatever. And I don't really believe in the Saviour mentality, because I think everyone's an adult and like a human being capable of making their own decisions. So unless they ask me for help, I'm not going to give my advice. I will always ask questions, to kind of clarify it, help them clarify, but I'm not going to coach them or like give them like a solution. I know, that's like instinctually. For me, when I look at my past like, I'm very much like an engineering brain. I was like, there's a problem. There's a solution. There's a problem solution, but then what the missing piece was, are Am I solving a problem clinical problem that they never asked you to solve? So that's the key differentiation is like sometimes 90% of the time people when they're saying to you like this is what's going on, they just want to be heard. And when it comes to my coaching clients, they they asked explicitly to help me with this. Usually when it's a friend or a family member, just venting, I have to catch myself to not coach without permission and just allow them to, to just ask questions and just to be heard. Yeah,

Francisco Mahfuz 34:38

I think that's amazing advice, where where I think that advice becomes complicated to follow is when it comes to parenting.

Hana Jung 34:45

Yes, like with the issue of parenting, I can't really speak for parents because I am not one. But

Francisco Mahfuz 34:54

that probably just means you have more clarity than we do.

Hana Jung 35:00

Yeah, I mean, who knows, I might think very differently when I have children of my own. And all of this advice will go out the window. But that will be a new perspective when I get there. But for now, this is my first.

Francisco Mahfuz 35:13

I think one trap that a lot of parents fall into, and I'm trying to crawl out of it is that we genuinely think that we can, we can influence who our children are, we can, we can make it easier or harder for them to become who they are, we can definitely influence things like manners, and we can instil some good habits and things like that. But you know, you're not going to make a shy child become an extrovert, you're not going to, you know, make a non musical child become musical. But when it comes to things like, like, for example, I just, this is the silliest example. But I think it's relevant, because, you know, she was suffering for it. Some kid in her class told her she was slow. And it wasn't the first time she was told that she was slow. And I don't know, she prides herself to be really fast. And she, like, loves riding around in she was really bothered by this. And I'm like, Okay, well, this is clearly a silly thing to be upset about, I understand why she's upset, what tools can I give four and a half year old to maybe make her his life. And I said, Well, you are slower than me, but you're a lot faster than your mom. It's just like, just trying to find something you can give them. And it's in with grownups. And I get, you know, I get a whole coach without permission. But it is difficult, I think at times to see friends or family, when they have been suffering for this, because of the same story for a very long time. In you know, that, like, if there was any way that they could just see it from a different angle, that all that pain can can either go away, or at least become a lot, a lot less of an issue. But you're right, and I don't know if there is a way to not force it on people, but to to be more sort of outbound with that other than the inbound. So I actually, I have an example, a terrible example of the whole coaching without permission thing in the type of thing you do, that there was this person I've spoken to on LinkedIn a couple of times, and we always seem to get get sort of aggressive with each other and get into an argument or whatever. And he's a life coach. And it's so the last time we spoke was something like, I don't know, I think I I offered some some help with content, because I thought his content, which is could be fantastic. Was was not that great. It's like listen, I have some ideas, if you listen to them, let me know. And then he started just telling me a whole bunch of stuff about my life, and is like, you know, what, are you doing this? Are you doing that I'm like, I'm not sure I want to get into this conversation. And then very quickly devolved into him basically telling me off, if I haven't, you know, if I'm not doing what I'm meant to be doing, and this is not supporting my family, and blah, blah, then I'm not living my life to the fullest or any just like that coming to from someone when you haven't asked, is just horrendous. There's no way that that would ever work. Guilt someone to change their life.

Hana Jung 38:18

Because I think from his perspective, he probably made some assumptions through his lens. And he was like, Oh, he's suffering. But that might not be the case for you just as when you observe people who you're like, oh, I can clearly see from my angle, they're suffering, but they may not see it. And also, I always ask, what are they gaining from staying stuck, because they always gain something, if it wasn't beneficial to them in some way, they wouldn't still remain that way. It would be like, you know, when you hit rock bottom, you're like, Holy hell, I need to get myself out of here. But if you don't make that realisation, that means you're still benefiting in some sick way, you're still benefiting, right? You can still play the victim role. And maybe they like that because it brings them connections, or maybe they act like they are incapable. And so it never pushes them. They don't have to actually try hard, or you know, they tell themselves, they can never do what you do and that they can stay small, because they're happy, they're comfortable, but they're afraid to admit it or whatever. So you just always have to assume that they are in the position that they actually want to be in. Unless they expressly ask for it. Because think about it. And most people if they're in a situation they don't want to be in they either get themselves out or look for people to help them get out. Very rarely are you then yeah, but that's what I mean. It's like if they want to moan a lot, but don't even notice there's some people who just like to complain but those

Francisco Mahfuz 39:45

are called the British.

Hana Jung 39:49

Oh my god, that's so funny. Um, yeah. The Wenjing Palms is like the same.

Francisco Mahfuz 39:55

Yes, but I think what you're what you're missing in that and Ellison is that he saw right through me. And I was being hypocritical and not willing to live my life to the fullest. Yeah, we get a lot of business, social media, like people that will ask you questions like, so how's the year going? How's the business in there? What challenges are you facing? And they tried to get in getting you into some sort of coaching conversation that as soon as you give them any, any rope, then they try to hang you with it and go oh, well, if so, yeah, not I fully I fully agree that the coaching without permission is very good, a very good idea. So on more specifically on how you do that, because there's the questioning process, you're trying to find what's limiting people, I would expect that a lot of those sessions get somewhat emotional, and get somewhat, you know, childhood traumas and things of that nature coming out. But once once you've done that, it's once it's come out, once you sort of been able to identify, Okay, well, maybe this is why I'm doing this thing, or I'm thinking this thing. What comes next? So how do you go from okay, I know what the problem is to actually try to move away from that story into a better one. Yeah,

Hana Jung 41:10

that's a good question. So I have different exercises to sort of fortify it, it's almost like when you have an infection, that's like the negative story that's harming you, you instead of like putting more band aids on it, you have to kind of cut it open and let it breathe, and then we learn to stitch it and heal it. So how that process works is like the initial, like cutting is going to feel quite painful. And you're gonna let a lot of the anger, the sadness, these emotions out. And then we go about the process using our intuition using our mind like logic, you know, that's something that most people feel comfortable with. But then it's also important to understand how it affects like your spirit. And like what you actually what brings you that like childhood joy? And what I do is I have them look at like, okay, like, what values do you have currently, because the values that you had in the past, when you first created that story might be very different. So how can we use that as a tool, to then choose a new story that's actually aligned with the values that you live day in and day out today? And then another way that I approach it is like, Okay, let's go deeper into looking at that childhood moment. Because this is a pattern, I do believe in patterns and cycles. So it's like, if you feel this way, now, chances are very high that you have felt this way in the past, let's look at your pattern, your growth pattern, where have you been stuck in the past? And how did you move forward successfully in the past cycle? Another way that I like teach people is like, hey, like, let's look at replacing it. So if you take something away, like you have to replace it, but what do you replace it with? What's that new story. So the new story is rooted in your values, and also rooted in the things that you actually do want for yourself, not the things that you don't want for yourself, like, oh, I don't want something that, you know, like, I don't want to feel stressed, I was like, don't talk about what you don't want to talk about what you do want to like, Okay, I want more calm, I want more peace, I want whatever. And it's like really getting them to emotionally connect to a future that they do want. And then making the backwards logical steps to get them there. Rather than thinking with only your brain and saying, like, I want to do this, I want to accomplish this because that is like a symptom of the underlying cause, which is they're hoping that it brings them like the happiness, the calm, the joy, that whatever. So it's important that you actually identify the underlying cause that you want for yourself in on an emotional level, then your subconscious brain can work to do to push you towards that path. And I help organise and like say, Okay, so like, what's the first step? What's the middle step? What's that goal plan look like on a practical level based on that emotional state you're trying to get to. So it's about pulling out some of that negative story, replacing it saying thank you for your service. Moving in aside and then identifying clearly, okay, this is what I want. This is how I want to feel. And these are the steps that I am willing to take that I want to take because it feels fun. There's a healthy amount of fear. I'm excited about it and I'm intellectually stimulated by it because I think there are five key things that you need to move forward and replace your story. Any any new path forward, I call it like the grief model. G is like is there an opportunity for growth because as human beings we always like to uplevel and learn and grow and our Do you have the resources like whether it's money time, even the energy you know, to do this new path? I is intellectual. Are you interested in it? Are you intellectually stimulated? Is your mind excited about this? He is for emotion and excitement. Like you have to feel it in your body like, like, I can't wait to do this. It's like when you're a kid and you play with a new toy, you're like, wake up first thing in the morning. because you're like you want to play with that new toy. And then the final thing is F because I think healthy amount of fear is important. Because if without that you're bored. So that's the methodology that I use to help people identify that new story.

Francisco Mahfuz 45:12

Because the way you do it, you do this is usually through retreats. Right? There's, there's, you call them retreats. But

Hana Jung 45:19

yeah, so I call them virtual retreats. I used to do them in person, but their in person experiences are very different. So reboot as a whole has the mission of connection connection in three key areas like to yourself, your greater mission and other people. So think of like the in person experiences, like 70% of it is about like connecting with other people and like experiencing things and it's really fun. And then 30% of it is like connecting to yourself in your mission. So the virtual programmes are the opposite, where majority of the group sessions are about connecting much deeper into who you are, and yourself. And then about 30% is of it is like connecting with others. So it's kind of like the focus is slightly different. But the overarching mission is the same. So yeah, I do do it in like group settings.

Francisco Mahfuz 46:11

The reason I was asking about that is because one question I had this, how sticky that process is, because because a lot of the things we're talking about, to great extent, our therapy, right, we can call it whatever we want, we can speak to the storytelling to a great extent, it's arguably more therapy than then coaching. And and so this is the question because I, I didn't get the feeling from what I found out about your work that you are talking to these people once a week for the rest of their lives. So you know how how easy or not it is to it is to relapse into some of those old stories without some sort of some sort of continuous follow up or continuous reinforcement?

Hana Jung 46:54

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, how I set it up is, I initially like, set the intention in the tone that I am not going to be their only teacher, because then that creates a weird dynamic where they rely on me, and I don't think that type of relationship is healthy for their long term growth. It's not about like, Oh, listen to me, I'm the only one with the answers. That's why I love working in groups so that they connect with these other amazing human beings in the same cohort, who are going through the same things who are willing to listen, and they help each other out. So during the programme, yes, like, I'm guiding them through the process. But I'm certainly not the only teacher. And in fact, by the end, I do like an integration session with each of them. And I assign them with permission, of course, because I kind of like watch how people interact. And I can usually tell, like, who has chemistry to support each other, either similar minded or complementary. And so I connect those two, and I'm like, you have your accountability partner. And as an experiment for the next year, I want you to check in with each other at minimum once a month. And they're like, sweet, so then they have one other person who understands their story, who understands their challenges, to bounce ideas off of and connect with, even without me being involved. So I think it's really important to give them the tools that they can implement on their own. And this why like, all of my like coaching, like I call them exercises, because it's meant to be practice, they can access them whenever they want. And whenever they're having a moment of like, I'm really challenged by this. I'm like, Hey, remember that module on fear, like, go revisit that, or like, Hey, I'm making a hard decision. I was like, oh, remember that decision making matrix? Like go visit that you know, so it's like, they have all the tools and they do continuously come back and even after like three years, someone's now on their second business. She's like, Hey, I dusted off field exercises now and like it's, it's still very helpful. So it's nice to know that it's always a tool to use,

Francisco Mahfuz 48:58

I have a feeling that once we're out of the the madness that we're living through with a pandemic and now in the in the physical retreats, the physical experiences become a thing again, a lot of these people are gonna go, Oh, I think I need to reboot again, I think what is what is it this year? I do it in Bali. Again, I think I really need a few a couple of weeks there again, the exercise is not cutting it for me.

Hana Jung 49:23

I think it's important to have both because you want that connection. You know, you want to have fun, I believe in being more joyful with this process of understanding yourself because I think so much of the coaching industry, and I guess therapy, I mean, I'm not a therapist, I just think I've been through a lot of shit in my life that makes me like think of a certain way, but I think a lot of people Sorry, I just like lost my train of thought their

Francisco Mahfuz 49:51

retreats in paradise.

Hana Jung 49:54

Yeah, I think a lot of people are attracted to that because they're like, Oh, it's so fun. And you know, like it, why not, it's like a vacation. And the reason why I think that is actually a good thing is because a lot of the coaching industry is very serious and very heavy, and so is therapy. And I think it's missing a key part of human existence, which is joy, play fun. And, you know, in person experiences allow for that. I mean, I've been experimenting with some virtual sessions as well to be more joyful and silly and fun, like we do like virtual like, movement and dance, and like drawing parties and all of these things to keep more of that playful energy. But it's much easier if I'm being honest, much easier in person to be like, basically, like, running around like kids like playing hide and seek, you know, and that joyfulness is also important to human growth.

Francisco Mahfuz 50:47

Yeah, and I think that I haven't developed this thought particularly well, but But what you are doing, I think a lot of people would consider sort of the protruding personally, is sort of the cliche of I'm going to go find myself, I'm going to live in different parts of the world, there's going to always going to be a beach, it's never going to be the you know, the light could be the bath. But normally, it's a warm place. And, and I think that to some people that that I can imagine that could be the risk that some people are attracted by the concept of what they're going to display, super beautiful place to do. But a part of them is thinking, Well, I'm going to paradise either. So I'm spending a week there is an exercise that is some stuff. And I think that what we're going through now, forces the focus back on what the actual work is, the only real question which I'm sure you have a better answer in a year or two is, does the real work? Is it more effective? If you have to force it? If it's virtual, right? So if it's not, you don't get all the community and all the other things you would get more easily in person? Does he make the the real work you're trying to do more effective or less. And I think it might just be different for some people, where some people, we will need that, to get into the headspace to do it. And some people like well, if I'm there, enjoying the beach, and everything out, I'm putting up with this stuff. So

Hana Jung 52:13

yeah, well, it's funny that you say that, because during the pandemic, like a lot of people, we went virtual, but it's so funny, because I've actually had the idea to do a virtual cohort like this for years. But you know, obviously planning like four or five retreats a year, it takes a lot of time, a lot of energy. So I never had the moment. So when the COVID hit, I was like, Okay, well now as good a time as any. And what I found was, it is actually more effective, working across 10 weeks, like a much longer period of time to develop slowly these deeper relationships with the members of the cohort to unpack things, because I think there is a little bit of an integration time where if you learn something new, you couldn't have to think about it on your own, practice it on your own, let it sink in before you rush off to the next exercise, right. So there's much more of a step by step approach that feels much more solid. So I've noticed a much more long term benefits of the people who've gone through the cohort. Now like coming up on over a year now I'm now in my eighth cycle. And the people at the very start where they are now from the very first cohort to where they are now is completely different in such an amazing way like many started their own businesses, many like up levelled in their own unique way moved countries, whatever. But that's cool to watch versus like the in person experiences are only like a week, you know, and there's only so much you can do given like, there's also things to do, there's a lot of distractions, and it's really fun and it's joyful. So I think moving forward, how I'm going to leverage the power of in person connection and joy with the impact of these longer term, more intentional programmes virtually is to have the virtual experience first because like it has to start with you give that space to explore yourself first. And then what naturally happens is by the end there like I can't wait to meet all of you guys in person and then we do like a retreat. Yes.

Francisco Mahfuz 54:20

I think the British will call that you know, you know, you do the work and you get a piece up after the work. Celebrate the work by getting by getting a bit rowdy with everyone else. Listen, I think I think the self is just about up where you are, and and the time time to go get my kid from school. That kid I should try not to indoctrinate too much with my own ideas is also going up. So if people want to find out more about the work you're doing, what's the best place to do that?

Hana Jung 54:53

Definitely Instagram if they want to check out reboot experiences or The Hana Jang is my personal, it's HA and HA un GV Hana Jang. And I post I do a lot of like, little mini workshops on there and I share a lot of helpful content. She's just really meant to nourish your growth. So that's the best way to reach me. And obviously, the website reboot.

Francisco Mahfuz 55:19

Perfect. I'll put all that in the show notes. And I'll be glad to tell Brian that he was right to do so. So again, thank you very much for your time today, Hannah.

Hana Jung 55:31

It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much, Francisco. Alright, everyone.

Francisco Mahfuz 55:33

Thanks for tuning in. Take care of yourselves. And until next time.

I hope you enjoy the show. And if you did, I'd love for you to subscribe and leave us a review or a rating on the Apple podcasts app. It's very easy. You open the app and find this show and scroll down a little and when you see the stars tap. I'd really appreciate it and it does help other people find this. And if you'd like to get in touch or find out more about what I do, reach out to me on LinkedIn or visit my website story

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